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Piers the Plowman's avatar

These arguments are so worn I'm surprised people still make them. There are things to say in Orthodoxy's favor but these aren't really it. I hope the man has found whatever he was looking for in Orthodoxy but I'm glad Erick has undertaken to refute them, since I just don't have the patience for it.

Tony L (The Good Fight)'s avatar

My own hopefully value-add thoughts and emphasis:

#1 Double-standards are easy to fall into, regardless of the topic or sides. EO does put all its eggs in one basket, namely the episcopate as a whole or ecumenical councils, as any Protestant could point out. To reject this traditional EO ecclesiology is merely to fall into Protestant ecclesiology.

#2 Again, holding EO to its own legit standard/methodology of florilegia and thus exposing the double-standard and the ignorance of Ybarra's work.

#3 Appeals to perspicuity or "obviousness" is just lazy and sloppy special pleading. (And yet he accuses Catholics a lazy "quote-mining"?) Putting forth the stories of famous heavy-weight intellectual converts is a good counter.

#4 Hostile non-Catholic witnesses to the Catholic interpretation of historical events are the most powerful and effective witnesses, at least at diffusing the ad hominem attacks of bias and "Peter syndrome." Non-Catholics try this tactic too in appealing to Chieti & Ravenna docs and a few Catholic scholars who generally are speaking outside their expertise/competence, but we have answers to that, and I haven't seen those answers engaged. Instead of hand-waving away the evidence in the name of flattery/honorifics or perspicuity, why can't EO engage each piece of evidence (ecumenical council or saint) one at a time on its own terms? Ybarra does this with the most difficult evidence challenging the Catholic papal claims. Again, another double-standard in approaching the evidence.

#5&6 As Lofton has pointed out, no one thinks the Catholic Church was unable to clarify and settle the matter of the Marian dogmas. They are so clear that they are obvious and frequent targets for non-Catholic attacks. The speed and decisiveness of the papacy (or Church generally!) to clarify doctrinal confusion at a particular time and place is something that the Holy Spirit apparently allows a lot of leeway to. If EO ecclesiology allows for long periods of time for the Holy Spirit to finally rescue the Church generally through councils (directed and approved by Rome historically), it should apply the same standard with regard to rescues through the papacy. When EO adopt Protestant talking points, they always undermine EO too.

#7 Doesn't get more universal than ecumenical councils: https://youtu.be/ScgWXKRTRjA

#8 No early Church father excluded Peter from being the Rock: https://youtu.be/TS6NLhfGK6Y

There is early, consistent, & universal/Eastern testimony linking Mt 16:18 to Rome and papal prerogatives: https://youtu.be/gVV9XyMPSIY

#9 When patristic, saintly, and Eastern testimony appeal to Scripture like Mt 16, Lk 22, & Jn 21 and acknowledge the specific Roman powers to excommunicate, approve councils as ecumenical, and settle doctrinal matters, one has to take all that seriously rather than dismiss as mere Byzantine flattery. And one has to ask: are the popes flattering themselves when they speak of their own supreme power and authority? Hadrian isn't quibbling over titles but the real power and authority that such titles manifest/communicate.

#10 Yes, shocking as it might be to some, proving papal infallibility or indefectibility is not essential to proving a minimal facts papacy. Papal infallibility and indefectibility are more of a necessary consequence of divinely instituted papal leadership. Not sure there's a significant distinction between leadership and supremacy though....

#11 Doesn't matter who calls the council. What matters is who decides which councils are binding or not on the whole Church. Ybarra demolishes this objection in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZAWIOpXxSk

#12 lol, talk about "obscure historical events" related to the details of the Meletian schism! Nicely handled, asking for the clear historical evidence and using the earliest interpretation of such events.

#13 The Nicene Creed was formulated to address specific heresies, not to be comprehensive. The lack of direct and explicit mention of the papacy cuts both ways. One could easily say its absence speaks to it already being agreed upon, especially in light of other testimony. Implicitly though, a Church that is "one, holy, and catholic" requires or implies a mechanism to achieve all 3 of those marks simultaneously. The Creed mentions nothing specific about councils or bishops or Church governance either, which is why some Protestants feel free to affirm it. If one appeals to the implicit context that the Creed was created by an ecumenical council, besides the scholarly doubt about that, one could also appeal to the contextual fact that Rome eventually approved it.

# 14 Just too much contextual information arguing against Davis' interpretation of Chalcedon, which was dominated by Pope Leo: https://youtu.be/ScgWXKRTRjA?si=LWNIFH8CDT_L_U9P&t=158

#15&16 Concessions are made when appropriate, mischaracterizations corrected, and the difficulties are confronted and explained satisfactorily and coherently. Every side has difficulties to explain.

#17 The fact that the creed was already revised once is prima facie evidence that creeds, including and especially the Nicene one, can indeed be changed to further clarify the faith. Seems like a dumb objection in context.

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